tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post5415309217950132034..comments2023-10-18T02:03:42.145-07:00Comments on LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Delurk ThreadUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger93125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-6362889720281826442007-04-14T09:50:00.000-07:002007-04-14T09:50:00.000-07:00I say now HI!I am a finn and I live in Finland too...I say now HI!<br><br>I am a finn and I live in Finland too. I don´t remember how I found this site (perhaps there was a link somewhere).<br><br>We are so similar, I have found it when I have read your comments. I understand you who have left Laestadianism although I have not left this congregation we have in Finland. Some years ago I found a Finnish radio programme "Bible from cover to cover" (it is in internet too www.sansa.fi). I have listened it nearly every day and it has been fantastic to be able to learn the Bible!<br><br>Many people in our congregation cannot accept that kind of things because that man who has written that programme is a clergyman in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (although we all are members of that church..!)<br><br>Now I say greetings to all of you! Thank you for this site and this possibility to practise my English...!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-80978968748832482832007-04-14T10:01:00.000-07:002007-04-14T10:01:00.000-07:00Kiitos for delurking and for your interesting comm...Kiitos for delurking and for your interesting comments. Your English is already better than many native speakers, but I encourage you to practice here. Please tell us about your congregation. Would you say it is becoming more or less traditional?Julie Whitehornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16921829370327742832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-39458766248568308032007-04-15T02:43:00.000-07:002007-04-15T02:43:00.000-07:00Oh, it is the same as OALC! But we have been here ...Oh, it is the same as OALC! But we have been here a part of our Evangelical Lutheran Church always and that is why I think it is not just the same thing...<br><br>Already when I was young (I´m now 55) I used to go to that "official" church often. I liked organ music and liturgy too. I used to go to "seurat" too... I think our congregation here is not as closed as OALC is in USA. Laestadians here have no sacraments of their own, we are members of this Evangelical Lutheran Church. <br><br>In future it is not sure because there are many people who don´t accept our "formal" or "official" church (women priests for instance).<br><br>Some years ago I had a crisis of my own and then I had to think everything, what is the basis of my life really and so on...I found that I don´t believe anything...<br><br>Then I found this radio programme I told before and I could study the Bible. I found all those old stories we studied at school when I was a little girl and those too I had never heard to be explained.<br><br>I think many of those problems you are talking here are the same we have in Finland in spite of differences I mentioned. I am used to go to Laestadian meetings only some times a year; I think it is rather the same as to go home I had when I was a child...I can never forget those songs and that atmosphere, so why to try to leave it? It is part of my life, it is so deeply in my heart. My friends are too there. <br><br>Don´t understand me wrong, I mean this is just my experience. My children have not experienced this by the same way as I have and they have always lived by their way and they have left. <br><br>It is very interesting to read about different life stories and how people can find their ways out of difficult situations and what kind of experiences people have.<br><br>Now excuse me this story, it is rather imperfect because my vocabulary is so small; I have no words to explain these things! <br><br>Greetings to you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-86885896734925479212007-04-15T04:44:00.000-07:002007-04-15T04:44:00.000-07:00I´m here again!I would like to add one word: I hav...I´m here again!<br><br>I would like to add one word: I have read that I wrote before and I found it was CHAOTIC!<br><br>Perhaps I take part only reading these comments...<br><br>Bye, bye!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-57087323769917589312007-04-15T04:58:00.000-07:002007-04-15T04:58:00.000-07:00anon above: i understood what you said, it wasn...anon above: i understood what you said, it wasn't chaotic like you thought! keep commenting!!! Your english is better than you think!!TKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-56228684863054374952007-04-15T12:00:00.000-07:002007-04-15T12:00:00.000-07:00anon,It's good that you write! Your story is i...anon,<br><br>It's good that you write! Your story is important, too. You are courageous for writing even though you have a hard time thinking of your words. The more you do it, the easier it will be. <br>It was interesting to read because it is helpful to know what other people have experienced. <br><br>Thank you!daisyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03168831819807523569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-32056052175074143422007-04-15T12:16:00.000-07:002007-04-15T12:16:00.000-07:00Dear anonymous from Finland--oh please don't l...Dear anonymous from Finland--oh please don't leave-I understood you completely. Your feelings are very clear, and there are many who have the feeling of going home again when they hear the old songs, and it is one of the things that keeps you there. That is what bothers some of us who left. We can't believe the teachings of the OALC as being the only right church, but I for one, wish I had a childhood church that I could "go home" to. I don't, so I have had to create my own "home". That is the only true thing to do, but it doesn't take away the longing for "what could have been". Some members of the church would like it think that longing is an indication that I know their church is right--but the truth is very different. The longing is for a childhood that would have been filled with lessons on loving the Lord, rejoicing in his love for us, and reading of the Word. All I learned to was to be worried about what other people in the church thought and how important it was to follow the church rules--had nothing to do with God.LLLreadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-29443979477252641432007-04-15T21:18:00.000-07:002007-04-15T21:18:00.000-07:00To clarify 1 thing......I believe there are specif...To clarify 1 thing......<br>I believe there are specifically many OALC lurkers here. No question that with that many daily hits, most people dont post. However, despite the warnings preached in the OALC about the internet (which is because they dont believe God can provide them with self-control to keep members from surfung for porn on the web. HONEST!) there are many OALCers with internet access at work and at home because they "need" it. Those wo no not have computer visit those who do and then everyone`s couriousity is then fed. No question OALCers are here.<br><br>TO the anon who thought I was getting "heated".... NOPE- just telling the truth. I noticed that you or nobody else corrected my statements and I stand by them.<br>No doubt in my mind this site is setting doubts in the minds of OALCers. I know it would have for me if this site would have been there for me when I was a Toot.Old Tootnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-4886101114253349372007-04-15T23:46:00.000-07:002007-04-15T23:46:00.000-07:00To the Finnish anonymous OALCer, thanks for delurk...To the Finnish anonymous OALCer, thanks for delurking! It's good to know there are other fellow "Finlanders" here, I'm in Finland, too. :) I haven't contributed much lately, I guess I just haven't had anything to say, but I've participated more in the discussion in the past. I like to visit OALC meetings every now and then, too. Although I don't approve of much of what they preach there and don't feel any spiritual need to go there I still like the social aspects of it, meeting people etc, and singing all those old songs is kind of fun, we don't sing along that much in the Orthodox church. I guess it's now more than a year since I went to the OALC last time, but I've been to the ALC a couple of times during the past year, it's pretty much the same feeling there as in the OALC.theoforosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-90135572433990354502007-04-16T08:26:00.000-07:002007-04-16T08:26:00.000-07:00Thank you, tk and daisyaday! It was nice to read y...Thank you, tk and daisyaday! It was nice to read your comments.<br><br>And illreader, I can agree many things you wrote... I too remember many things from my childhood that are not good. I know very well those rules...I have many distressing experiences. I don´t believe it is the only right church in the world and that is why I go there only now and then just as Theoforos said. That is why many people think I have left, my sister for instance, she said me last yesterday that my way is bad and I ought to think my death. It is very difficult to explain her this.<br><br>But I think that we cannot have a sinless congregation or sinless friends or siblings. We have problems where we are... I think this is sometimes rather funny because some of my siblings really think I am lost and my children think (and say too) that I am narrow-minded and oldfashioned.<br>I´m afraid I´ll be one day a skitsofrenic woman...<br><br>(My husband is wise: he doesn´t say ANYTHING. If he loves himself it is the best for him :-)<br><br>Theoforos, I have read your comments and I think they have been fine: I wonder who you are? Perhaps I know you?<br>I must now admit I envy your good knowledge of English!<br><br>I have found in this site so much more acceptance and love than here in Finland in our websites where we can discuss with each other. I have seen your comments there, Theoforos, and I think you can see the same thing...Perhaps we cannot respect each other´s opinions in Finland?<br><br>Old toot, the preachers warn of course about internet too here in Finland but I think nowadays people cannot help using these possibilities to connect each other. And this is fine! Of course there are always possibilities to use EVERYTHING wrong...<br><br>It is fine to think I can have friends in USA. I have there some relatives (in WA, I was there many years ago) but I suppose they are not lurking this site...<br><br>Our spring has been warmer than ever (+20) and now I go out!<br><br>Bye bye!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-54467231032002857512007-04-16T08:50:00.000-07:002007-04-16T08:50:00.000-07:00I am an exoalc'er (and a physician also). My ...I am an exoalc'er (and a physician also). My family honored our dad's request to go home to die. I think it's unconscionable NOT to honor a parent's dying wish. I can think no reason on God's green earth not to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-39118227034070037522007-04-16T16:12:00.000-07:002007-04-16T16:12:00.000-07:00To our Dear Friend from Finland--I got a laugh out...To our Dear Friend from Finland--I got a laugh out of your comment that if your husband loves himself it is best for him to keep quiet. I just told my husband the same thing!!! Do you have relatives that stay away from you because you have new ideas? What about cutting your hair, makeup, and those kinds of things? What are the rules?LLLreadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-19553474516665889102007-04-16T16:35:00.000-07:002007-04-16T16:35:00.000-07:00I've been a lurker on this site for quite some...I've been a lurker on this site for quite some time. This is my first post. I'm an LLL church member but not the OALC. I will not say what my LLL group affiliation is.<br><br>This site has helped me validate many views I've had for a long time. Many thanks to all you that post. I totally understand what all of you have been through because I'm on the inside and see how the outside is refered to at church and in social gatherings. Most people seem to be blind to what they are saying and doing. I keep my thoughts to myself and don't say anything. It can be rather difficult at times because hypocrasy and inconsistancy are difficult to ignore.<br><br>It would be nice to hear personal experiences from other LLL groups' former members besides OALC. Not that OALC posts are unwanted or that posts from other LLL exmembers would be any different. It's just easier to relate when I see a post refering to the LLL group I am in; especially in the position I am in now. <br><br>I'm sure that once one makes the leap to the other side, your experience as to how you were treated by your former church members is the same regardless of which LLL sect you are in, but I'm still on the inside and haven't been through that experience. I'm dreading it(if it gets to that point), but thanks to this site I've come to understand the freedom that one can experience as one gets further away from the difficulties of leaving. It gives me hope.<br><br>I'm not unhappy now, in fact I'm quite happy. I've got many good friends in my LLL church, but it's a social and cultural happiness. Not Spiritual. I used to not care about the spiritual side that much. I talked the talk, walked the walk, but never really thought the thought(for myself that is). I thought the thought in the past but they were thoughts I heard from others; then interalized them, and understood them as being my own.<br><br>Now that I've developed a curiousity(started 4 or 5 years ago) and desire to learn, AND overcome my fears of the questions I had; my Spiritual happiness has become more important to me.<br><br>It's amazing that when I used to question things and then try to find answers(from church publications, sermons, fellow members, bible, etc.); the answers as I understood them put intense fear inside of me.<br>I would figure that I'm not going to learn, I'm just going to believe. I would then go back into my old mode for few weeks or up to a year and a half one time. Now that the fear of learning is gone, I'm able to persue my questions. The answers from my LLL church haven't added up, especially when I've used the Bible as my guide. I've been reading the Bible for over one year now in reletive secrecy. Can you believe that? Secrecy!!!<br><br>Gotta go. Please excuse any my poor grammer. Back to lurking :)Lurker for some timenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-63604329172914887442007-04-16T16:57:00.000-07:002007-04-16T16:57:00.000-07:00Lurker for Some Time,Welcome to the discussion, an...Lurker for Some Time,<br>Welcome to the discussion, and thank you for joining! I'm former OFALC myself, but have strong personal ties to what we knew as the FALC as well. Perhaps someone can tell me what branch it was, because I had no idea growing up that there were so many. Preachers that held services in that church included Werner Visto and George Wilson that I can remember. I know Wilson was from somewhere in MN.<br><br>Hopefully you will find things here that will encourage you, and will bring your perspective to the discussion! <br><br>I recently had a discussion with some old (a generation older than me) FALC friends, who surprised me when they said that they were not welcomed or visited by very many of the OALC families when they lived in that community. Our family and a very few others ignored those unwritten rules and we maintained close relationships with all of the Finnish community, no doubt because we were related to more people in the local FALC than we were in the local OFALC! <br><br>Funny how as not only a child but also as an adult I never sensed that separation, perhaps because the thought of such a thing would have been so idiotic to me. I do not suffer fools well, and never have.<br><br>Those friends told me that Laestadius was never read in their church, which suprised me as well. I always thought they did. We didn't attend many church services with the FALC, but we did go on occasion for special meetings and things. The local FALC church was forced to close its doors before I reached adulthood due to declining membership, so I guess I never paid much attention to what was in the service as a kid and a teenager -- most likely because I was far more interested in a FALC girl than in listening to the sermons...but hey, she was cuter than a bug's ear.cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07542845394936520037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-7537633410242636712007-04-16T17:05:00.000-07:002007-04-16T17:05:00.000-07:00A bit more about the FALC that I knew...When I was...A bit more about the FALC that I knew...<br><br>When I was quite young, an old friend of my Father died, and since the local FALC church had already closed, Wilson came from MN to conduct the funeral. The guy that died was kind of a town character and known for some heavy drinking. To this day I recall being at that funeral and hearing Wilson thunder out in his sermon that "This man is burning in hell right now, and if you don't want to share his fate, you should be careful." <br><br>While we tend to focus because of our background, the OALC obviously does not have a monopoly on the fire and brimstone, put me on a pedestal and I'll make 'em feel as bad as I can, "preachers".<br><br>I mentioned that to my old friends and they agreed -- Wilson was a bad one! BTW, only one of three of those friends is still FALC.cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07542845394936520037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-82665725911329589522007-04-16T18:50:00.000-07:002007-04-16T18:50:00.000-07:00just a quick question for Lurker for some time,By ...just a quick question for Lurker for some time,<br>By LLL do you mean the laestadian lutheran church (LLC) or is it something different? <br>What does FALC and OFLC stand for? I'm an ex-llc memeber, and i dont know much about these other branches.. They never told us anything, just that there was a herecy and that it was an "aweful time"..other than that, they never told us what really happened..can someone explain it to me?TKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-58781698675100456452007-04-16T18:51:00.000-07:002007-04-16T18:51:00.000-07:00oops..i mean awful, not awefuloops..<br>i mean awful, not awefultknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-17125385278660557592007-04-16T18:53:00.000-07:002007-04-16T18:53:00.000-07:00and another correction..i meant OFALC, not OFLC..s...and another correction..<br>i meant OFALC, not OFLC..<br>sorry, i guess i dont look at my spelling too close when i'm typing<br>:)tknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-74029415638192403492007-04-16T20:55:00.000-07:002007-04-16T20:55:00.000-07:00What we refer to now as the OALC -- Old Apostolic ...What we refer to now as the OALC -- Old Apostolic Lutheran Church -- used to be known as the Old Finnish Apostolic Lutheran Church.<br><br>The other church just dropped the "Old". In later years, both churches dropped the "Finnish".<br><br>As a kid, it seemed very logical, since there were very few non-Finnish members. How well I remember those horrifically long sermons, preached in Finnish and then translated -- and in one of the few times I've really regretted being bilingual, getting a double dose just so I wouldn't miss anything, I guess. It was kind of like getting hit on the backstroke with that double edged sword. Maybe that's what they meant...hmmmm...<br><br>In the last years that I was in the OALC, I was a "lukkari" or song leader (if you ever heard me sing, you'd know how desperate they were). I took a perverse pleasure in picking Finnish hymns.<br><br>When my Mother passed away a few years ago, there were only about a half dozen of us who could still manage "Joppa loppui päivän vaivat". Funny, I was kind of sad thinking that at my funeral there probably won't be anyone able to sing an old Finnish hymn for me...cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07542845394936520037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-73293454397063170242007-04-16T23:45:00.000-07:002007-04-16T23:45:00.000-07:00Anonymous from Finland, I don't know if you kn...Anonymous from Finland, I don't know if you know me, but if you really really would like to know, you'll have to send me an e-mail, I'm not going to give you any more hints here. :) My e-mail is theoforos(at)yahoo.com. Replace (at) with @. <br><br>I agree with you about the discussion here being more civilized than on the Finnish boards. I think I maybe even mentioned that here before. Maybe the American debating culture could be at least one of the reasons? In Finnish schools debating skills are not taught to the same extent as in America, if at all.<br><br>I've got relatives in Washington, too, and I know some of them are lurking here, so I wouldn't be so sure about yours either, you never know what they are up to. :)theoforosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-14208171803653580442007-04-17T06:21:00.000-07:002007-04-17T06:21:00.000-07:00I remember the "split" in the early 70&#...I remember the "split" in the early 70's- many of my close friends went to the "other side".I was raised in the FALC with Rev. Tulkii and Rev. Torala in Calument. I never could quite understand the reasons- but I thought "they" thought we were not strict enough. Its strange that now however "they" have a website, camps for kids- seem more worldly than the FALC .I was curious about some people I met in the UP. They attend the ALC, in Chassel Mi. and they have churches all over the USA. They remind me of the Amish- they wear long skirts, men wear no ties, , they don't cut their hair, they home school their kids, they have very large families. Are they a break off group from any of the branches mentioned on this site?backtothefutureccnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-65013637448713822292007-04-17T07:49:00.000-07:002007-04-17T07:49:00.000-07:00I was in the LLC. I was told the reasons for the s...I was in the LLC. I was told the reasons for the split in the 70's were these<br><br>1. disagreements on worldly sins<br>2. disagreement if Peter (in the bible) was in denial or if he lost his faith<br>3. Greeting others not in church with God's Peace<br>4. Who the mother congregation was (which I'm not sure what this meant?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-30080849565800607682007-04-17T08:36:00.000-07:002007-04-17T08:36:00.000-07:00I think the worldly sins were:1.Participating in o...I think the worldly sins were:<br><br>1.Participating in organized sports<br>2.Attending sporting events, especially on Sundays when there was church.<br>3.Going to movies and watching TV<br>4.Greeting "unbelievers"<br>5.The overall acceptance of marrying couples in the church when the women was already pregnant.<br>6.Men with beards and long hair.<br><br>These are a few amongst many and maybe they were not all discussed in the open, but at social get togethers and such. The LLC is much more dynamic than the FALC from my perspective(Ex LLC), which is seems odd because they are still more conservative. I think it's because while they are very conservative, they are not nearly as tradition based. This explains the camps, the web site, the mission work in South America, Africa, and even Russia(I think).anon2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-80911360562601458762007-04-17T08:49:00.000-07:002007-04-17T08:49:00.000-07:00Lurker for some time:When I read your story, I fel...Lurker for some time:<br>When I read your story, I felt like I could have been reading my own. How many people are out there in the same situation? When I go to church I feel like I am so alone in my doubting, I must be the only one. <br>I am married with many young children, if I were to leave this would be devasting to my husband, children and everyone I know. My life would be a mess. Can anyone out there relate to this? <br>I can actually readily accept the lifestyle, in fact I like it, the only thing I feel I can't accept is that we are the only ones saved. This has tormented my mind for so long. Yet the thought of leaving gives me a horrible stomachache.<br>I would really like to hear from others on here who are in a similar situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-53701928885458522732007-04-17T08:54:00.000-07:002007-04-17T08:54:00.000-07:00backtothefuturecc,your question about the ALC in C...backtothefuturecc,<br><br>your question about the ALC in Chassell and in the US.. The ALC is called the "Federation", and years ago would most likely have been called the "Mickelson" branch. Other ALCers would most likely have better information, but my observation and understanding is that the ALC has always had a very wide variety under the ALC name. To me, it's easiest to categorize them/us as conservatives, moderates, and liberals, all within the same ALC name. And then there are variations within each category, and it seems the more I talk to people the more I find that there is nothing 'typical' any one of those categories, either!! Therefore, I, as a current ALCer (and I would consider myself a moderate), just live my life and go to the Bible (as daisyaday so eloquently wrote), and be guided by God as to how to live my life, cuz ya sure can't please everyone, and I don't think that's the way to live anyway. Just be yourself, my hubby says :-).Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.com