"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Elders' Syndrome and Doubters

Monday, July 22, 2013

Elders' Syndrome and Doubters

I've been hearing from several affected people about a virus in OALC communities called "Elders' Syndrome" coinciding with the visit to the USA of church celebrities elders from Gällivare, Sweden. Symptoms reportedly include:
  • Increase in text messages and calls urging relatives to attend meetings
  • General decrease in TV and music consumption
  • Subtle competition among members for knowledge about, and access to, celebrities elders
  • Decline in OALC children at lakes and swimming pools despite sweltering heat
  • Uptick in pious expressions and use of the word "precious"
  • Rampant repetition of anything sage or amusing said by celebrities elders
  • Numbers of devoted groupies members following the celebrities elders across the country
  • Subtle shifts in what sins are considered important
  • Irrational fear of a "website spreading lies about the precious Christianity"
If you've been affected by any of these symptoms, wait a few months, as they will abate. 

In all seriousness, I am curious about the deference given these gentlemen, and suspect that the elders' meetings are, in addition to social and educational opportunities, a purification rite that helps keep the OALC functioning. This was validated today by a member's comment that she feels "so light and cleansed after the elder's visit, like a really good sauna."

I suspect that they also create an opportunity for doubts, in thinking members, at least, who are likely to turn to the internet for information about the church. In today's New York Times, there's a wonderful story about Hans Mattson, the former leader of the Mormon Church in Europe, who left after his superiors told him not to question the church and not to discuss his doubts, even with his wife. (I'll admit to a moment of schadenfreude that Sweden, which gave us Laestadius in 1800, has to was fertile territory for his American contemporary Joseph Smith, born five years later.)


Mattson: "My hope is that the church will grow larger in acceptance so you are allowed to have doubts . . .  you can go to Joseph Smith and ask, why did he pray? Because he was asking what to do. So he was a doubter, wasn't he? I think that's great. You find answers."


Of course, the same thing can be said of Laestadius. 


He was a doubter. A rebel, in fact.

31 comments:

  1. The 'virus' of the visiting elders sounds like a visit from the politburo. In a wiki article about the politburo it states, "In Marxist-Leninist states, the party is seen as "the vanguard of the people" and from that legitimizes itself to lead the state. In that way, the party officials in the politburo informally lead the state." Cross-country visits from the elders serves multiple purposes as it allows people to verbalize petty grievances, rectify doctrinal misunderstandings and overall they get everyone back into line. Of course everyone has to act like they are excited when they visit as the pure fountain of knowledge from Gallivare is speaking...and then two weeks later it is just 'ho um' and back to business as usual as it was all just another Laestadian ritual. Old AP

    ReplyDelete
  2. I have even witnessed this, when a woman I was speaking to about the latest abuse cases in Washington, how the preacher from here is escorting them as they travel along, and how they will be discussing what to do about abuse....supposedly.

    What struck me is that adult folks are not able to make up their own minds on how to treat folks who abuse children, that the Elders will be the ones to make that choice.

    Placing the decisions upon these gentlemen from another country as to what is Right to do about abuse, what actions should be taken etc. Is amazing to me, but I get it. If you live your life being directed, you look for direction. It is hard to make an independent choice.

    Having these Elders in town is like having the main puppeteer attention. Hoping they will make a decision that you agree with. That you will be given the right to move in a direction that suits you.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Well....I was somewhat surprised by the tone of your post, Free, with the crossed out "celebrities". Most churches, excepting perhaps the independent ones, have some sort of a guiding body. The Lutherans (whether Laestadian or not), the Catholics (Roman and Orthodox), the Southern Baptists, etc. all have a hierarchy, whether it is a Pope, bishops, or the Dalai Lama. The body of the church looks to that hierarchy for guidance, and hold those leaders to a certain level of reverence. I don't think of those people as "celebrities", even though some people regard them as such.

    What I remember from many years ago is that the OALC elders were experienced guides, who tended to speak much more on doctrine rather than the "day to day, don't do this or that, you are all sinful creatures" spiel that some of the American preachers focused on -- I have always suspected due to their lack of liturgical and scriptural knowledge. It used to amuse me when the elders preached a much more tolerant message, and even chastised the ones who were focused only on sin. I recall an American asking William Ericsson whether having pictures wasn't a sin. He replied that he hoped not, since he carried several with him all of the time, to the disappointment of the inquirer, who was probably hoping for ammunition against someone. Gunnar Jonsson had an organ in his home and played it, even though the Americans would take that as a slippery slope to hell. It was one or the other of those two men I believe, who when asked about this sin or that sin by Americans, had responded with a question of why the Americans were so focused on sin rather than their soul's salvation. The premise there is that the sins are forgiven through Christ's sacrifice, but salvation was achieved through belief in that saving grace, not whether you had or had not sinned, or been able to make a last gasp confession.

    OK, that was a long bunny trail, but my point is that I have no reason to attack the elders of the OALC anymore than I have reason to attack the Dalai Lama. If people look to these gentlemen for guidance in their lives, it is not up to me to ridicule them.

    I do agree with Beth to a point, that it is a bit strange to ask a foreigner how to handle a legal matter. If however, they seek guidance on how to handle from the church's responsibility in reporting crime to legal authority rather than seeking how to cover it up, and how to handle the spiritual aspects of an issue -- forgiveness, shunning, or whatever the tenets of a given church are -- then that's fine and within their arena of responsibility.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Am I attacking them? Mocking, I think, but not attacking. As far as I can see, these elders are revered -- just like many modern celebrities -- for no other reason than being chosen by those in power. These guys have no special training, no formal biblical education or liturgical knowledge. I would wager many of our readers know more about Laestadian history than they do. Further, their roles require them to be secretive, isolationist, and conformist. This is not as true for leaders of mainline churches (and Tibetan Buddhism), and I'm fairly certain the Dalai Lama would not tell his followers that a website such as this one was "spreading lies." He encourages dialogue and inquiry, going so far as to tell his followers to throw out beliefs that don't accord with observed reality.

    Thankfully, the internet has given us new tools to question and challenge all the old structures of authority. The following is adapted from an essay by a yoga teacher I admire named Matthew Remski. I've substituted religion for yoga, and the point still holds:

    While the practice of religion may once have demanded conformity to a particular set of controlled beliefs and practices administered by a recognized authority, it now involves learning how to dialogue with and participate amongst the beliefs and practices of many authorities in order to reclaim or be inspired to invent the practical and contemplative tools that are appropriate to immediate circumstance. Fueled by technology, this implicit social rejection of the exclusionary paradigm of lineage elides with an emerging spiritual ideal. Knowing that our species survival depends upon our capacity to protect and celebrate diversity, we are beginning to also understand that “my path” is meaningless without “your path”. My fulfillment depends upon your fulfillment, and it’s very likely that you’ll get there differently from the way I do, by applying yourself uniquely, using the tools we can now share across the divides of power, whether academic or religious.

    I hope to hear more about the elders' visit. I would love to hear that I'm all wrong about them, and they in fact provide a wonderful service to the OALC and to the truth. I would love to hear that they have discussed the abuse problem and have changed OALC policies, so that members and preachers alike will now report abusers and support victims.

    ReplyDelete
  5. My sincere condolences to those who lost their loved ones in tragic car accidents during the elders' meetings. I cannot imagine the pain of losing a child, but I know that the church is gathering around the families now and doing something it does very well, sharing their tears.

    Laneesa Abernathy of Kalispell, MT

    Savanna Koistenen of Bryant, SD

    ReplyDelete
  6. I enjoyed the 'tone' of Free's post. I thought it injected some much needed humor into a situation that takes itself way too seriously.

    Plymouth

    ReplyDelete
  7. I have been part of the Elder's meetings on the West Coast and followed them to Davenport and on to Kalispell. It is truly a wonderful experience. Where else in the world can you find thousands of believers that love you and would do anything for you? Where else do you find believers that open their hearts and homes to you? Where else can you find believers that can forgive your sins in Jesus' name? The answer is... "no where". I sense that their may be a hint of envy on this website. I will say that you are missing out. Welcome any time to our services in any of the localities. You might surprise yourself....your heart may soften a little, you may be able to cleanse your conscience, and you might realize that we are not so bad after all. Even the Elder's! They are humble, submissive men who are only doing what they have been asked.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Flora says to Thankful: Where else can you find these types of experiences and believers? At any number of churches summer services, Elder meetings, conventions, shrines, and One Direction concerts all around the world, all summer long. Except that each believes that only the believers in that particular sect are believing correctly (including the One Directioners although they make exceptions for Taylor Swift:-)

      Delete
    2. "Where else can you find believers that can forgive your sins in Jesus' name?"

      To echo Flora, just about any "Christian" church, including the LLC, FALC, ALC and IALC.

      My brother and I, both raised FALC, had hoped to attend the OALC Elders' tour here in MN to see how the "other half" lives. Unfortunately our schedules were not conducive. Maybe next year.

      Delete
    3. Thank you Thankful/God for letting people know the condition of their hearts and conscience.

      Delete
  8. Where else can you find Forgiveness of sin's? In the Catholic Church. Who by the way has a better claim on being the one "true church" then anyone else.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Thank you CVOW. I enjoy reading your posts! Anonymous: I believe what was meant by "where else can you find Forgiveness of sins" The commentor meant the Leastadian based faiths where the belief is that through the "Keys" and "laying on of Hands" any layperson/ believer can proclaim to another "Believe all of your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and shed blood" The Catholics do not do this, they require that you go to a priest. This is an important distinction between beliefs.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Where can you find thousands of believers...? Rio de Janeiro just had 4 MILLION young people attend the world youth event with Pope Francis. ...and yeah, they provide absolution for sins as well, as Anonymous 7/26 said. No envy here, Thankful. I'm good.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I made a "tongue in cheek"comment on 7/26 about finding " forgiveness of sin's" in the Catholic church, and said they had a better claim to being the "one true church" then we do. That's the whole problem, the reason that the church keeps splitting up like rotten wood. that is the Laestadian movements "fatal flaw". ......We have been taught that the Laestadian style "forgiveness of sins" = salvation. And we have been also taught that there is such a thing as the "right church". Both of these understandings are straight from the devil. And we as individuals would know this is if we would read the Bible for ourselves....These understandings can only prevent "poor souls" from trusting in "Jesus Christ alone",and getting "born again"..........It is impossible to both please God by"trusting in Christ alone", and still have a "right church mentality". I experienced 40 years of spiritual torment before I learned this. I again say to the preacher ,who is proud of his religion, go and buy some "asbestos underwear"..........Matt.

    ReplyDelete
  12. In response to Thankful's mention of a sense of envy?
    I do not envy sitting on a hard wooden bench for roughly 2 hours every morning and evening ALL SUMMER for any reason. Throw in translating a foreign language in the most droning tones ever, heard through the telephone patch (nobody even to stare at) and I really start to fall asleep. And they most certainly are regarded as celebrities! I had a friend who's mom had an accident prior to the elders coming 4 years ago. The elders paid her a personal visit in her home and we never heard the end of it. The family glowed when they related that story. This family happens to have money and I wouldn't be surprised if the church got a little bigger chunk of it that year. The only thing I've ever missed about the church was the sense of community if you were a member. As long as you were a "good christian" they had your back. But the community I'm finding now, on my own, with good and pure people, is just as warm--actually, MORE warm--then that I ever experienced at church. And these people are CHOOSING to be with me, share their lives with me, where those at church just get who they're stuck with. And I realize that if someone is a believer in their church there is nothing I can do to change their beliefs, and I have no desire to do so. But please realize that I do not envy a group of people who do simply as they're told and are trained to not listen to anything but what they're told by their elders and preachers.

    Where else can you find your sins forgiven?
    When I attended the OALC I asked forgiveness many times without truly being sorry for the "sins" I had committed. By asking forgiveness it got everybody off your back. Having left the church, I've been able to truly apologize to someone for something that I had ACTUALLY done wrong, and felt that same "pure and cleansed" sense of peace. I've been told that there is no way to ever experience that free and clear feeling away from being a cleansed christian in the OALC. Not true! Since I've left I've found that peace in many places, in many forms. A few of which are: through nature, watching the sun rise or set, music, true friends, good food or a cup of coffee, spiritual retreats, listening to my thoughts, true apologies, a good book, a good hug, even a good bowel movement. For those who are raised in the church asking forgiveness is the only way they know to come to peace. If they were to experience bits of the real world they would realize how much they are missing out on.

    Sorry about the rant, just lots of thoughts today.

    -24

    ReplyDelete
  13. Sat down among the countless flock...
    to learn a bit from the Elders talk.
    The muffled words where heard by none(poor quality audio.)
    But all where there, their part was done.
    In our hearts to all be kind...
    stoically sitting their faith was blind.
    Finstien

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like it :) Poor quality audio is right. And I remember travelling quite a bit 4 years ago when the elders were here. I struggled to stay awake during many of the sermons but as soon as we were let loose we sure had good times at the bonfires, "get-to's", beaches, etc. It's my opinon that very few travel to hear the word of god (that's available via phone patch), it's a social thing and for "young kids" it's a big old mingle--see who's single from other localities.

      24

      Delete
    2. I was eavesdropping on a conversation at a coffeeshop in Calumet when I heard a couple of locals saying, "well, it looks like the mating season is upon us?" A guy who must have been a newcomer to the area, said, "What is the mating season?" He said, well, the First Apostolic Lutheran Church is holding their St. John's Services. "Ahhh, that's why there are so many out-of-state plates." Sure enough, over the weekend, at the local Burger King, gas stations, etc. you would see whole carloads of young people, some of girls, some of boys, pile in and out during breaks. You could tell they were Laestadian only by the girls, who wore no make-up or earrings but otherwise were decked in their finest clothes. Beautiful young people, really. It reminded me of similar "big services" in our group. So we happened to go to the cemetery, where I was looking again for a grave I can never ever find, and the cemetery is adjacent to the services. I almost wished I had a pair of binoculars. It gave me a wave of nostalgia for my own group, but for the similarities with the tent, the people milling around the churchyard, the kids playing in the sand and running around the cars. I wished almost for a cloak of invisibility. I had never known there were so many similar groups of people who operated much the same as we. Whenever they were mentioned, it was clear that they were in some way, heretical, because they did X or they did not do X, etc. I always felt like, especially the girls, felt a wave of desperation at age 20 if they were not married, a fear, of what they would be able to do with their lives if they did not meet a fellow believer and get married. The boys, less so, because they could find increasingly younger friends up to their early 30s and still hang around and do the guy stuff like fishing and hunting and going to get-togethers, whereas a girl by her mid-twenties tended to outgrow such gatherings and found less in common with the younger. If girls dated an unbeliever, they tended to get shamed for that, too. For several years I worked with a woman who had grown up in my church. She was in her early 50s, never got married, and regretted it. She loved her grandma, who had told her growing up she should not get married unless to a believer. She lived half in the world, half in the church for many years until she drifted away. Once she wanted me to take her to services, there was a part of her who longed for it, but she feared the comments some people would make about why she stayed away so long, and how many people would probably not greet her, as she experienced at recent funerals. She was one of the first I confided that I was leaving the church, and I told her in tears. "What did they do to YOU?" she asked.

      Recently a cousin who attends fairly regularly told me one of her close relatives has started not greeting her; she does not know why, either, but instead of the regular greeting, she shakes her hand and says, "hello."

      A question to the lurkers: It never hurts anyone to offer God's Peace to any former member if they come for services. It's not up to you to judge what is in their hearts. Greet them/salute them, or whatever you say in your LLL-speak. Perhaps they left for reasons that had nothing to do with not believing in the doctrine, but out of fear, anxiety, or inability to cope with a social situation that was stressing them out. Maybe they did not feel loved, wanted, or accepted. Maybe they are missing their community. Your doctrine teaches that if you greet an unbeliever, or a fallen believer, and if they're not truly in faith, that the greeting will come back to you. Right? By shunning them, you are committing a sin. Don't ask them where they've been. Tell them you are happy to see them. Your acceptance costs you nothing, but might be the difference it takes to welcome back one of your lost sheep.

      Delete
    3. It's true that anyone can and should be saluted. Every soul deserves the peace of God, to be sure. But I can recall times in the past when I'd saluted someone who was either not from our LLL branch, had left, or some such...and it caused such an intensely awkward, uncomfortable moment (putting the other person 'on the spot', fumbling and mumbling, turning bright red, etc) that it created a natural trepidation on my part from there on out. Can't speak for everyone, but perhaps that may be part of the reason others have failed to salute, also. Something to consider.

      R

      Delete
  14. R,
    You bring up something important. What is the purpose of wishing someone peace if, by doing so, you render them ill at ease?

    Is it possible that this phrase is not actually what it seems to be? That it has become code for something else, like a secret Masonic handshake?

    Did Jesus do it? Did Luther? Did Laestadius?

    How did this tradition evolve? Anyone?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Speaking with my elderly parents about this they didn't have a whole lot to add, only that as long as they can remember God's Peace has been said, and that it first was said in finnish then said in english, and that the meaning had somehow changed along the way.

      My dad did tell a funny story that I thought I would share. When my dad was young "God's Peace" was not said in the area where he lived but "Peace to thee" was.
      A man had come to the door of another mans home and when he answered the door he greeted the man with "peace to thee" even tho the man did not belong to his church, he still greeted him. Well the other man got offended and said back "Piss on you too". Realizing that he had heard the man incorrectly he apologized.

      new day

      Delete
  15. I don't know the answers to these questions either, Free, and I'd love to understand. I hope someone comes by with knowledge/insight regarding the greeting ...I'm curious!

    R

    ReplyDelete
  16. In my opinion, the greeting has nothing to do with 'the peace of God' and everything to do with control. Lately, I have become aware of the subtle mechanisms of how Laestadianism and religion in general perpetuate themselves. People in these select groups are constantly seeking reassurance/ pressuring you to be 'one of them'. They do this through the greeting of 'God's peace', casual questions like 'Oh, what did you do last night/ Sunday?', if you weren't at a gathering/ church, or just talking about church news in general to make sure you are still interested in it. (Note that it is ok to talk about who was or wasn't in church, but rarely is what was said in church discussed.)

    I have noticed the same group-think mentality among smokers. When someone is heading out for a smoke they generally announce to other smokers that they should join them. If others are participating in the same activity, it gives them 'permission' to do it as well. Subconsciously they can think, well Jim is smoking and he is a smart, logical person so it must be ok for me to do it. I had the same thought process myself when I still 'believed'. I used the presence of smart, well-adjusted people in church as justification for why it was ok for me to not question things that didn't quite add up. They clearly didn't question it, so why should I?

    Plymouth

    ReplyDelete
  17. The conclusion I forgot to add about the group-think mentality of both smokers and religious groups is neither groups want the members to leave. If smart, logical Jim is no longer a smoker or going to church, then he is no longer giving other members permission to do the same. If he questioned what he was doing, then an any other member might have to do the same. A very scary thought. This is why it is much easier to subconsciously try keep Jim in the flock, or bum him 'just one smoke, it can't hurt' when he is trying to quit.

    Plymouth

    ReplyDelete
  18. Wishing someone "God's Peace" is like a membership card that you flash each time you greet another churchgoer. If the greeting meant simply that you wished the peace of God for somebody, then you would be able to greet everyone that way. But it is very clear, in the FALC and I assume every other branch, that the "God's Peace" greeting is to be used exclusively between believers. Others aren't deserving of such peace, apparently.

    --Puuroa Face

    ReplyDelete
  19. It has certainly come to that, but I think the greeting goes back to Biblical times, don't you? "Peace be to you." "Peace be in this house." "May the Peace of God goes with you."

    Individual groups take it upon themselves to "make it personal" so they can recognize one another in the greater context of society, like a secret handshake.

    In the church I currently attend (very liberal), the minister has everyone get up and greet one another. He recently added that the greeting is rather secular unless we add God's Peace to it. Or, the Peace of God be with you. It is interesting how most people are uncomfortable with that -- in a church, no less!

    SISU

    ReplyDelete
  20. My sister invited me for lunch today, I had assumed that it would be just a family thing, my sisters, sister-in-law and mom. When I arrived there were 12 vans in her driveway. Whoa. These were the people, girls, who I spent a lot of time with but hadn't really seen since I left the church in March. Okay, would've been nice to have been warned (I wouldn't have gone, haha!) but I'm here so lets do this. I was greeted in various ways, some were actually special and had meaning and love behind them. I got a couple of very warm hugs, several without a "salutation" just a "hi, how've you been, it's good to see you!" I didn't feel like it was awkward for either party. I don't salute people when I walk into a room but if somebody salutes me, I'll return with a "hi, how are you", and occasionally "God's Peace." I generally let the other party decide how to handle the situation.
    And yes, I do believe it's a "membership" thing. The ones who didn't salute me, for example, chose not to because I no longer attend the church and to them it meant no longer extending that greeting.
    Oh, and these girls all showed up in skirts which was not typical prior to this summer with the elders coming here. But, it ended up being a nice afternoon. Tiring, and I bit my tongue several times (and my eyes rolled quite a few), but it was more pleasant then I anticipated it to be.

    24

    ReplyDelete
  21. The discussion of "To Speace or not to Speace" is interesting. I think some of it has to do with rejecting the person who left, but I surmise that it often is left out because the "in" person feels the "out" person would resent it. It can be awkward situation, for sure.

    SISU

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The part of scripture quoted for it actually suggests "speacing" everybody you see. If that is what is understood by the "house" you come to. Luke 10:5 . Be encouraged. It is actually understood that way if you ask the preachers. But human flesh and blood kind of dilutes this somewhat I suppose. Be encouraged.

      Delete
  22. Thanks free for keeping this site up and running. I left the OALC 5 years ago and it still brings a smile to me to hear what is going on the old church. Sounds like same old stuff just another 4 years until the elders come again. Mike

    ReplyDelete
  23. I have been going to the apostolic church all my life. Some members ignore me and others don't greet me with gods peace even when they greet the person next to me. It may because I am a pretty independent woman not too concerned with what others think. I wear alittle makeup do not wear a bun in my hair my kids have played sports. I don't think these things should be such a big deal. But sometimes I feel shunned and one way of shunning is not to greet you with gods peace. Also I brought a friend from outside church and she said its probably one way of leaving others out this exclusive handshake. Does Jesus want to leave others out?

    ReplyDelete